robsingleton.net

As someone who shares the same convictions about upholding God’s design for where His gift of sex belongs, I struggle with our culture’s acceptance of living together as normal and expected.

Can you help us a little in how to deal with it happening all around us? When friends, nieces, nephews, brother and sister in laws, and even church going acquaintances move in with their boyfriend/girlfriend – sometimes even planning to have babies with them without marriage, how do you respond? You can’t really ignore it when they tout the merits of it in front of you – the convenience, the “test period” rationale, how hard it is to afford a place on one income. Or when they invite your family, including your children, to visit them at their home. Or when they come to visit and expect to stay in the same room.

I just had a woman I had met through a church in Ohio tell me she moved in with her boyfriend rather than get married because she’s 57 and the guy at the social security office told her she will loose her benefit if she gets married!

And parents of twenty-somethings struggle so much with this trend- not wanting to push their adult kids away, they shrug and just accept it. When my niece moved in with her boyfriend recently, her mother wrote me, “… I told her I would have preferred she waited until they got married but we weren’t going to make an issue of it. I know they are eventually going to get married and be together …”.

I suppose she handled it as best she could, but then I wonder, by looking the other way, aren’t we just stepping out on a slippery slope? Remember the 57 year old woman? When she was 40, her children were on mission trips and she was a true believer. When she was 50, her daughter shacked up with someone, and she shrugged and said, “what can I do- I don’t want to push her away.” Now she’s 57, shacking up herself, and guess what, her daughter’s telling her, “Mom, it’s just a piece of paper!”

Kitty, you are exactly right. We do need to decide who and what we are going to follow before culture makes that choice for us.

The progression your 57 year old friend took is not uncommon. She’s living life like the proverbial ‘frog in the kettle’ illustrating perfectly (and tragically) that it’s the little things, the seemingly small and insignificant compromises people make each day, every week, and throughout the years that eventually finds them so far from everything they once held dear.

Stay strong, Kitty and speak the truth in love to your friends. That’s the only way they’ll hear it.

I am really struggling right now with this sort of thing in my family, I was hoping for more of an answer and what you would do.

Hey Marty,

Thanks for your comment.

Actually, I am sharing this entire month what I would (and do) tell teenagers regarding this subject. To hear this just go to our church website and click the link for “pocasts” it will take you to the itunes Southbrook podcast and there you can find the first 2 messages in our “Friends with Benefits” series.

Hope this helps.

I normally don’t comment on on blogs such as yours, but since you made a specific effort to solicit my attention, I’ll make an exception.

I have no problem with monogamous heterosexual marriage. It suits a lot of people, myself included (just past my fourth anniversary). (Then again, I’m no poster child for lifetime marriage: I’m on my second marriage, and I have an… unusual… history.)

But I know many people who are quite happy in non-traditional arrangements, including, of course many homosexual people. And I know of no small few people who are very unhappy in monogamous heterosexual marriages.

It’s noteworthy that many of the comments so far worry about other people’s choices, not the commenters’ own choices.

It’s hard to understand your remark that, “We do need to decide who and what we are going to follow before culture makes that choice for us.” You are, of course, a cultural influence on your parishioners. It’s hard to see your effort as anything but to substitute one cultural influence for another. Again, there’s nothing wrong with culture per se, and there’s nothing wrong with being a cultural influence. But when you invoke not only your own cultural authority but the authority of God, it’s very… difficult… to see how you are furthering the value of individuals actually deciding for themselves.

To Barefoot Bum,
I’m curious…..are you a member of Southbrook or a bible believing church?
Your reply to Rob’s blog is one that many people would agree with, but ,I think we need to be careful that we don’t give Pastor Rob too much credit with what’s wrong and what’s the right way to live. You see Barefoot, Rob is just a messenger really. As most pastors are. Now don’t get me wrong, he does more than that. Preaching and living by example are just couple of things he does. God wants us to be blessed by teachers and preachers. So we can learn about the kind of life He wants us to have.

We all have history, I know I certainly do! Because I’ve made choices that could have easily altered my future, I’m grateful that there were “messengers” “pastors” out there that cared enough about me to want to see me have an eternal home in Heaven.

You see, it’s ultimately not about cultural influence but of God’s authority. We have a book authored and tailored by God that gives us very clear instruction on how we should live our lives. Sadly, because of all of the temptations out in the world, we choose to live our lives that go against God’s desire for us.

I too have friends and family that chose to live together rather than in marriage. We have such a disposable society, a “try it before you buy it”: mentality. And most of the time, it doesn’t work. With broken hearts, high divorce rates, sexually transmitted diseases and children in single parent homes that are a result of divorce or illegitamate births, why are we still making those choices? Sadly, our worldly culture tells us it’s accepted.

It’s time we ARE challenged by God’s authority so that our children can have the kind of future they deserve……that we all deserve……..eternal life……….not a temporary feel good one that might last only 50 or 60 years as adults. We fight God’s design. We want to do everything else under the sun because we view it as, “what we are going to “lose” rather than “what we are going to “gain”. God becomes a last resort in many cases.

I’m glad you put your comment up here because you are helping people to think about their choices. You have contributed a dialogue that is important. You are right when you say, “it’s very difficult.” WE’ve made it difficult. Not God. We are so attacked by things that are not of God. No wonder we live in a confused, messed up world. But, there is hope……

So, thanks Beachbum!

Thank you Pastor Rob…
Janie

Barefoot, we’re on our second marriage too. We are celebrating 10 years in August and I hope that my pastor will continue to challenge me in ways that God sees fit. The odds are against people that are in their second marriage “according to the worlds culture” but you and I can have success this time around in “God’s culture”. I hope we can be an example to those that are thinking about going against God’s authority. We owe it to them.

I called you Beachbum….sorry about that “Barefoot Bum”

Being a Beachbum doesn’t sound all that bad though does it?

I called you Beachbum….sorry about that “Barefoot Bum”

No worries. Call me anything you like, just don’t call me late for dinner. My given name is “Larry”, so you can call me that as well.

I’m curious…..are you a member of Southbrook or a bible believing church?

No. I’m a “militant” atheist. Rob linked to me for Blogroll Amnesty Day, which is why I’m commenting.

You see, it’s ultimately not about cultural influence but of God’s authority.

My point is that God’s (supposed) authority is transmitted and propagated through culture, in this case a Bible-believing Christian culture. We can’t escape culture, unless you want to live alone in a shack in Montana. All we can do is employ one culture or another.

There’s also a big ambiguity in Rob’s original post: Should we promote monogamous heterosexual marriage because it always makes people happier? Because it usually does? Or because God or the Bible (supposedly) commands it?

If God really does command monogamous heterosexual marriage, then one would expect that human happiness would be at best a secondary consideration. As an analogy, it seems obviously the case in secular law that no matter how happy it might make me to steal my neighbor’s Jaguar, such activity would be… well, frowned upon.

On the other hand, if monogamous heterosexual marriage always makes people happier, why would we need to invoke God at all? If we define happiness as that which, all things considered, people want the most, then all we have to do is convince them factually that marriage will indeed make them happier, which (if true) would seem to be a much easier task than trying to substantiate supernatural, divine authority.

Of course the notion that monogamous heterosexual marriage really is the one and only way of achieving a happy sexual and family life is a matter of no small controversy.

I came this way after reading Lysa’s post this morning about your sermon series, and just listened to it online. What a refreshing word, and especially coming from a pastor. I am thankful you’re being bold in speaking on the friends with benefits culture. I work with teens at a Christian boarding/day school and this is a relevant topic, especially in what I am hearing from our recent graduates. I’m spreading the word about your message through my blogs.

Thanks,
Elisa

Thanks for your comment, Barefoot (I like that better than, “bum” )!

Here’s what I mean by the remark about following culture…

I don’t see it as a choice between my opinion and, say, Hollywood’s opinion. Since I take God at His Word I see it as a choice between our creator or our culture. These two are not always at odds, but quite often they are.

For instance, many in our culture truly live by the motto, “If it feels good, do it.” But God says, “if it’s right it will feel good.” I know they sound the same, but they are basically at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Also, many say, “feel your way into an action.” God says, “Act your way into a feeling.” An example of this is when I counsel married couples and constantly hear the excuse, “But I just don’t feel like I love him anymore,” or, “I just don’t feel like I love her anymore.”

I suppose your struggle might come from assuming what I teach each week is more my opinion than God’s Word, but it’s actually just the opposite at Southbrook Church. My opinion may or may not make a bit of difference in a person’s life, but God’s Word makes all the difference in the world (heavens ).

Now, before you ‘go there’ — let me say, yes, the two can and sometimes do intersect, however, when the text I teach is not clear and I give my ‘take on it’ I always let them know that it is exactly that — my take, my opinion.

But it’s also true that you and I are coming from polar opposite places when we write. Honestly, that’s why I value your comments. I have no desire to “preach only to the choir” as it were. Nevertheless, a big difference (perhaps) between your position and mine is that I am not taking a poll (and please don’t take that offensively — It isn’t meant that way). But you and I (and everyone else who cares to look) can always point to groups here and there to make whatever case we want to. I am simply saying that I believe God’s ways end up better in the long run no matter how many “examples to the contrary” I hear about in the short run. Most periods of colossal screwing up in history are preceded by at least a moderately long time of “seeming success.” However, history tends to repeat itself and one clear pattern we see is that God’s people living God’s ways live much better lives.

You make good points, Barefoot. And I am actually used to hearing questions like this b/c Southbrook is not a church made up of your typical, “churchy” people. On any given weekend at least half of the more than 2,000 people there are just there “kicking the tires” as they say (< – not sure who, “they” are ). Life isn’t working out great going it alone, so they are there to see if there is anything to all this God stuff.

As to your conclusions about heterosexual marriage and happiness — let me erase all ambiguity. Again, I do not make decisions as a Christ follower based on feelings, emotions or popularity, but rather, trust. I trust that the God who made me knows best how I ought to live and I choose to follow His ways out of that trust.

I can honestly tell you that I am far more content as a believer than I ever was before but I didn’t come to Christ because of some bogus offer of euphoric bliss. The Christian life can be downright hard at times. It’s just that I do better knowing he’s right there with me than going it alone.

Rob: Since I take God at His Word I see it as a choice between our creator or our culture. These two are not always at odds, but quite often they are.

Naturally, since I don’t believe that any such thing as a God (in any meaningful sense, much less in the Biblical, Christian sense), I see your environment as a culture. There’s nothing wrong with culture, but few people (including atheists) see their own culture as just another culture; people like to believe there’s something objectively special about how they live. And that’s the problem: If you see your own way of life as not just another culture, but as something objectively true, it becomes vastly more difficult to resist imposing it on others by force.

One of the reasons I’m a “militant” atheist is that I see Christian culture in the United States aggressively and coercively trying to muscle away the more secular, pluralistic and multicultural societies we’ve been developing since The Enlightenment. I view this as a Bad Thing.

For instance, many in our culture truly live by the motto, “If it feels good, do it.” But God says, “if it’s right it will feel good.” I know they sound the same, but they are basically at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I think you’re oversimplifying present-day common culture. But you’re correct: I’m unable to discern the difference between your two formulations. Again, I know too many people who don’t feel good in living their lives as you exhort. By simple logic, if it doesn’t feel good, it isn’t right.

I suppose your struggle…

Keep in mind that when I talk about “struggle” and “difficulty” and the like, I’m politely expressing my incredulity.

I am simply saying that I believe God’s ways end up better in the long run no matter how many “examples to the contrary” I hear about in the short run.

This sort of reasoning is not persuasive to my skeptical mind. What specifically do you mean by “the long run”? Do we have to wait until Armageddon before we can test your beliefs empirically?

However, history tends to repeat itself and one clear pattern we see is that God’s people living God’s ways live much better lives.

Do they now? I’m skeptical to the point of incredulity. What specifically do you mean by “better lives”? Are you examining all the evidence or just cherry-picking or falling for confirmation bias?

I can honestly tell you that I am far more content as a believer than I ever was before but I didn’t come to Christ because of some bogus offer of euphoric bliss.

As a humanist, I’m pleased that you’re content, and — so long as you don’t try to make others unhappy — I’m nothing but pleased. But I can honestly tell you that I am far more content as an atheist than I can possibly imagine being as a Christian. There is very little about Christian life that I personally find at all appealing.

I wonder what you’ve truly been exposed to when you say “I cannot imagine being content as a Christian?”

If your encounters have been with the rude, pushy, ultra fundamentalist, legalistic wack jobs out there then we are far closer than you think. I actively preach them right out of the church nearly every weekend. On the other hand, I doubt you’ve encountered someone so radically transformed by the love of Christ that their life just overflows with kindness and an attitude of servanthood, a joy for living, etc. that stuff’s pretty appealing.

It’s also a bit subjective, I understand. I imagine you might view Christians as people living in a fantasy world, taking everything by faith and asking that nothing be proved out or shown ‘empirically’ as you say.

Am I wrong?

However, a large part of the reason I am a believer is just the opposite.

Truly, I don’t have near enough faith to be an atheist. And yes, I mean faith. In one sense, atheists are as religious as anyone else. They can’t ‘prove God isn’t there’ they take it by faith. For me, observing all the complexity of the universe just screams of a master designer and leaves no room for the impossibility that nothingness holds it all together. I mean, if you were walking in the wilderness and stumbled across a Van Gogh painting you wouldn’t exclaim, “Wow, I wonder how many millions of years that took to evolve!” No way, you’d know without doubt that there must have been a painter responsible for that masterpiece.

Well the universe, earth, even human body — heck, let’s just take the human eye for that matter — are infinitely more complex than the greatest painting ever done, yet people want to believe it all just happened by chance–no God.

All we see from nothing?

Intricate design throughout the universe (let alone the human body) yet no designer?

All the complexity required just to keep the human body alive?

Random?

All the details in place for planet earth to be able to sustain life?

The exact speed of it’s rotation, the exact distance from our sun?

The perfect orbit to keep seasons form lasting forever and casting us into either a permanent freezer or a scorching hot death valley?

If I had a thousand pages just to list these types of things I doubt I could do it. The fact is, our mere existence is a flat out miracle and for that, I blame God.

Hey, Barefoot (Larry) do you like to read? I sense you do, and I have an awesome book for you if you ever get the chance to read it. Actually, I have 2.

First, The Case for Christ: A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (Paperback) and

Second, I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist (Paperback)
by Norman L. Geisler (Author), Frank Turek (Author), <– catchy title, huh?

Now don’t get mad, but I leave you tonight with this…

I would never try to force my way of life on anyone (just as I believe Jesus never forces his love on anyone). I merely speak to others of that which has made such a huge difference in my life.
I actually believe all that stuff you read about in the Bible.

Do you have a Bible?

If not, could I send you one? I’d like you to read John chapter 3. And before you read why don’t you just ask God out loud to speak to your heart if he really does love you and want you to know Him?

Come on, give it a try.

I dare you.

Take care, Larry

Pastor Rob

Dear Rob,

First let me say that I appreciate the grace that you have shown in conversing with Larry. =)

I found you through Lysa Terkerst’s blog. I’m pretty sure I have this contest wrapped up (haha) as I am the only one so far that has followed your rules and linked back to you here. But it’s still early…

I do hope that you’ll take a minute to read my blog. My husband and I have been very intentional about positively engaging and communicating with our children about this subject.

BTW~ you have a fabulous youth guy there. Daryl and Cheri and great people. =)

Argument from Design, Argument from Incredulity, Argument from Ignorance, did I miss any?

And why is it that Xians always think atheists just haven’t read enough of the Bible?

I would bet money that Larry has read the Bible.

I have read - and still own for reference - multiple copies of it myself. Reading it does not increase its appeal, nor make Christianity believable in the remotest.

I also have the Book of Mormon, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, and many many other myths. How much research have you done into the history of your book and similar myths, Rob?

Barefoot, when you say, “There is very little about the Christian life that I find appealing” consider this. In spite of incredible tragedy that hits a true believing Christian, (as it hits every person since tragedy is an inevitable part of the normal human experience), the Christian life offers reward for complete trust in God’s ways.

The person who is simply guided by “if it doesn’t feel good don’t do it” as you suggest, is depending on this world to offer satisfaction. But worldly logic also says no pain no gain.

The person who trusts the Lord’s common sense ways is rewarded with an unexplainable joy, even in the midst of tragedy, that gets noticed because the reaction is unusual. I am guessing that you haven’t bumped into this type of believer in your life. Because it’s not the words the believer is saying or a judgement of your lifestyle, but simply the actions and behaviors that demonstrate, you would have taken notice.

I took notice of a believer like this years ago and it made me want what that person had. It was during a time of brokeness in my life and it motivated me to rebuild on something not of this world. I knew that eventually life’s tragedies would strike again. I’m not a pessimist – I’m a realist. It’s not if bad things happen, bad things will happen.

Tragedy did hit again, but this time the peace and confidence I’ve experienced is unexplainable but so real. Perhaps someone else going through tragedy without God might take notice and be motivated, as I was years ago, to rebuild upon God. If I could reach through this computer and convince you of how real this is, I would.

If your encounters have been with the rude, pushy, ultra fundamentalist, legalistic wack jobs out there then we are far closer than you think. I actively preach them right out of the church nearly every weekend. On the other hand, I doubt you’ve encountered someone so radically transformed by the love of Christ that their life just overflows with kindness and an attitude of servanthood, a joy for living, etc. that stuff’s pretty appealing.

I was raised a Quaker, I have an uncle who is an Episcopal priest and my family is Baptist. I never had any negative experiences with religious people until I became interested in politics as an adult. I must say, I’ve never encountered anyone who seems “radically transformed”, but I have met many Christians who were very nice people.

Truly, I don’t have near enough faith to be an atheist. And yes, I mean faith. In one sense, atheists are as religious as anyone else. They can’t ‘prove God isn’t there’ they take it by faith.

This is a common trope, but it’s built on philosophical quicksand and doesn’t hold water. I’ve written on this very topic at some length. A good starting point is my series on The Scientific Method, but I’ll dig through the archives tomorrow and post links to more specific material.

… yet people want to believe it all just happened by chance–no God.

I would urge you to study the scientific theories of evolution in much greater detail. As much detail, perhaps, as I have devoted to the study of Christian and Islamic apologetics. ‘-)

We’ll cover this topic in more detail later.

I would never try to force my way of life on anyone (just as I believe Jesus never forces his love on anyone).

I definitely approve.

Do you have a Bible?

But of course. Three. And links on my toolbar to BibleGateway and the Skeptics Annotated Bible. And a Koran (and my wife reads Arabic). And a Book of Mormon. (And about 5,000 other books; I read a lot.) One of my favorite quotations is Paul’s discourse on love.

There’s no question that there’s some terrific writing, terrific poetry, and some sound ethical and psychological advice in the Bible. There’s also a lot of baloney in it. Just like many other works of great human literature. It’s not bad for a bunch of Iron Age slave-owners and first- and second-century Jewish mystics, but definitely the work of, well, Iron Age slave-owners and Jewish mystics.

Keep in mind as well that I’m quite knowledgeable in a professional capacity about probability and statistics (and I’m a serious poker player). When you talk to me about improbability, I’m capable of discussing the subject with considerable mathematical rigor. You might want to brush up.

LOL ok, obviously this is going to be an ongoing conversation, so let me hand out my email so that I can attach documents and respond at greater length.

I’ll leave it at the end of this marathon post.

Couple things:

1st, studied Mormonism, JW’s, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam (though not as much until they thrust themselves back in the limelight with 9/11) and numerous other religions and cults for over 20 years. The comments I made were to get a feel for where you all were coming from (which, I’m still not sure of — a lot of people list books and ’studies’ [not saying you all did this, but I don't know. And, hey, I just did it as well, and YOU don't know!).

2nd -- Statistics was my best class in college ) -- I always get a kick out of defensive replies to the probability numbers thing rather than disproving the probability numbers thing. And Beth's comment, "argument from Design, Argument from Incredulity, Argument from Ignorance, did I miss any?"

Yes, Beth, you not only missed some of it, you also merely sent back a list of what you must believe to be 'typical' arguments, but where are your water tight responses?

3. I also took 4 years of Hebrew and 4 years of Greek (and about 2 years of Aramaic along side the Greek). so am not simply picking up a Bible at Walmart and thumbing through it.

Larry, what about the 2 books I pointed out? Have you read them? If you love to be challenged, they will do just that. My challenge to you is to read them with an open mind.

One final note: And, if the 2 of you have 'debated' Christians in the past -- true, Christ Followers (a term I prefer due to the moronic behavior of a lot of "Christians") than you must realize that at some point it comes down to faith. At some point every Christ follower is nothing more or less than an individual who realized that God is God and they are not and received the forgiveness Christ offers everyone. That comes through faith as we read in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

It just infuriates non Christians to hear this but it's never meant offensively. It's just that, how do you convince someone of something true in your life that they are simply unable to see? These things are spiritually discerned, not empirically dissected. This is also addressed in scripture here in 1 Cor. 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Finally, man's theories of life and origins, etc. come and go. Some are recycled from older myths and ideas, but they all have one thing in common -- man's attempt to explain life without God. You all say you arrived there logically. God says all of us arrive there rebelliously. Romans 1 addresses this here in the "Message"

" 18-23But God's angry displeasure erupts as acts of human mistrust and wrongdoing and lying accumulate, as people try to put a shroud over truth. But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being. So nobody has a good excuse. What happened was this: People knew God perfectly well, but when they didn't treat him like God, refusing to worship him, they trivialized themselves into silliness and confusion so that there was neither sense nor direction left in their lives. They pretended to know it all, but were illiterate regarding life. They traded the glory of God who holds the whole world in his hands for cheap figurines you can buy at any roadside stand.
24-25So God said, in effect, "If that's what you want, that's what you get." It wasn't long before they were living in a pigpen, smeared with filth, filthy inside and out. And all this because they traded the true God for a fake god, and worshiped the god they made instead of the God who made them—the God we bless, the God who blesses us. Oh, yes!

26-27Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either—women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.

28-32Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose. And then all hell broke loose: rampant evil, grabbing and grasping, vicious backstabbing. They made life hell on earth with their envy, wanton killing, bickering, and cheating. Look at them: mean-spirited, venomous, fork-tongued God-bashers. Bullies, swaggerers, insufferable windbags! They keep inventing new ways of wrecking lives. They ditch their parents when they get in the way. Stupid, slimy, cruel, cold-blooded. And it's not as if they don't know better. They know perfectly well they're spitting in God's face. And they don't care—worse, they hand out prizes to those who do the worst things best!"

So, this is why I believe we can debate until the Sun don't shine and still not get anywhere. At some point, for me, I realized that I was the problem, not God, and I received His free gifts of forgiveness and salvation. At that point my eyes were opened and I was able to spiritually discern things I could not previously.

A lot of non Christians hear something like that and immediately think, "How convenient! Simply build a house on the old "faith foundation" and then hide in it."

I guess it must seem that way to some. And the bad news is that it's going ot keep right on seeming that way until they place their trust in Christ and allow God to show them the truth.

So, if it's even possible to hear what I'm saying in a spirit of love, know this. I am completely aware that the message of Christ is a stumbling block to people. God knew it would be and the apostle Paul said so here, "but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles," 1 Cor. 1:23

Your best bet (in my oppinion)? Understand and accept what Jesus offers you in John 3,

"1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]”

4″How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9″How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10″You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

God loves you, Larry.

God loves you, Beth.

The next move is yours.

robtherev@gmail.com

When is the second sermon of this series going to be posted on the podcasts? Tragically, I was a FWB many years ago before the term was popular! In a way it’s helping me heal. Thank you Pastor Rob.

I did tell you we wouldn’t agree.

To clarify my previous post on why it helps me heal….I did not want this type of relationship, I wanted something more. However, the man that I was involved with only wanted a FWB style relationship. I thought I could change him, so I played it his way. He never changed and I still beat myself up everyday for letting someone do this to me.

[...] A Special Contest by: Rob Singleton [...]

I went to the 10am service this morning on 2/17/08 and pastor Rob mentioned this blog during the awesome message that’s over looked many times in the church today, sexuality and how God designed it and intended it.

Pastor Rob and Janie, I read your comments in response to Larry and I everything you wrote I agree, you both wrote it with love and patience. Janie, thanks for your testimony.

In the past when non-believers and or skeptics of God would ‘argue’ with me I felt like I had to defend God and one day I learned, God doesn’t need to be defended, He is the almighty He doesn’t need a defense for who He is. I wanted to leave that one thought with you, in the end God gives us a choice, we are either with Him or without Him…..and I choose Him. It’s the peace beyond all understanding and all of you who are reading this who have not found that peace that can only come from one source and that is God, Christ our saviour. I ask you to ask Him for it, God loves you and wants to fill you with his peace today.

well. this has been an intresting chain of comments to read.
First off I will throw out there that I am 14, a freshman in high school.
so i don’t have background in theology neither have i studied in depth other religions.

however I am a teenager who likes to have opinons

i’m going to start with something that follows logic quite clearly. and something we can probabaly agree on. I guess the whole geometry thing comes in handy…

[this is going to get a bit long and might seem a little off topic but by the time you finish you'll see where i'm going]

-everyone has a physical body. equipped with things that make humans unquie as a species. you can see, touch, feel, and percieve this. it’s a given.

-everyone also has a mind. this can be proven as the way you are able to have emotions and your own thoughts. it seperates us from other animals in the way we can make descions based off feelings rather than instict. [feelings are normally based off happiness i have learned]

this next part is what some like to debate on.
-everyone has a soul. I rationalize this with how there is a universal “right and wrong” C.S. Lewis talked about this in his book “Mere Christianity.” Overall in the world; in the majority of cultures agree and govern by the face that murdering [without a overall accepted rational cause], stealing, and cheating someone are “wrong”. Certain cultures also have very strict punishments for these things. Also things as in showing kindness, and loving others is considered “right”. I persoanlly believe that this comes from what could be called a soul.

Lets assume that these three things make up a human.
Well these three things about a human follow the trinity.
Jesus- Physical Body- the bible teaches Him to be God in the Flesh. He was able to be seen and touched. he also died like our physical bodies.
Father-Mind- Emotional, Rational, Can’t be seen, touched, or pictured.
Holy Spirit- Soul- Our Right and Wrong guide, something inside of us we can’t see or describe

all together a body, mind, and soul make a human.
all together Jesus, Father, Holy Spirit make God.

In Genesis 1:26-28 (NLT) we are told we’re made in God’s image.

26 Then God said, “Let us make human beings[a] in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

27 So God created human beings[b] in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”

If we look at ourselves compared to how God is. We can see how we are made in His image.
But one could say that Humans have manifested an idea of God that fits their own image.
That statement has some problems though.

-As humans we are consumed with our own happiness
this proven by the many many times happiness has already been disscussed in these comments. Our desire for ultimate happiness and our own agenda drives us.

-If we created this idea of God. then the Bible wouldn’t include things like…
-no sex before marriage, becuase if you ever have been to high school 80% of people there say its okay.
-homosexuality is wrong, because love is love right?? and who would want to stop that
-Putting others first, because if humans made this up wouldn’t it sound more like, get what you want first do whatever it takes to get it. oh and if you have some leftovers make YOURSELF look better by giving it to someone who might need it.

Honestly Humans couldn’t have made up God, and written the Bible. It would be full of non-contreversial stuff that everyone could agree upon. Becuase as a species we all have a basic makeup. Lets just call it human nature. That human nature goes against a lot that is in the Bible. Making it the best selling book of all time, the most contriversal book, and one that so many people seem to turn to at the last mintue.

Many things over time have been improbable and impossible. Some include God into this list.
but over history the improbable has become an absolute
and the impossible has become possible.
ever heard of App. State beating Michigan?
that was definitely improbable.
and creating something mechanical that would allow man to fly was said to be impossible.
I don’t know about you but i’ve ridden in several planes…

The things that are pushed at me to agree with everyday are almost impossible to list.
from things as in…

“if you can believe than you can achieve”
[this i find easy to dissprove because when i was 3 i believe wholeheartedly that i could fly around my living room to my dissapointment, about three carpet burn marks, and a hundred trys later i still couldn't fly]

to “revenge is sweet.”
[I've had my share of revengeful things that never have been sweet. only regretful down the road]

By simple math i can disern my ways through these things that life, media, and certain parts of culture tell me to believe.

all it takes is one Counterexample to make a statement false. And in the matter of absolute truth if you can’t find a counterexample then it is true at all times, everytime.

When it comes to God, and my relationship with Him. And the genuine relationships that friends of mine have with Him I have yet to find a counterexample.

But in the FWB spect. i think Rob is uncovering all the ways they don’t work.

I challenge someone, anyone to find a true counterexample of God.
I’m not saying find someone who says they are following what the Bible says and are not happy with their life.

I have no reason to believe that I should live my life according to my own happiness, or anyone’s happiness. I do enjoy the feeling of happiness but I see no reason to let my life be governed by a simple emotion.

Before you can say what someone is seeking isn’t there. You have to understand what exactly are you seeking, and why are you seeking it.

For me, I was seeking someone to love me, someone real, a best friend, a guide, a support team, something life transforming, something perfect, and a hint magical.

What I found was a Perfect, Loving, Omnipresent, OmniPowerful God who can do all things.
It fit everything i could ever need or want.

and you’re 14? Wow.

Rob I really appreciate your posts in this blog. You’ve tackled some tough subjects and have responded with some well thought out and concrete logic. It’s also nice to see that posters haven’t resorted to immature responses like name calling which I’ve seen on ‘other’ blogs when dealing with this type of subject material.

Oh wow what a series. I am really shocked and surprised at these posts. Rob you said there were many and I had to read them tonight and all I can say is wow, this is a heavy subject line you have touched on.

I do have a comment for the Barefoot Bum, you seem to be very passionate about your studies and your way of life. and although you have lots of knowledge have you ever invited Christ into your heart? Have you ever talked to God? Have you ever Prayed to God? You can read all about him and never really know him. Let me explain a little about myself first before you answer.

I have only been a Christian for a little over 4 years. I am married to my 3rd husband, 22 years and counting. I was of the world since I was 16, drugs, alcohol, permiscuity, pornogrophy, basically you name I was into it and so was my husband. That was before I was taken to a retreat. When I arrived at this retreat I was angry and on the verge of leaving my husband. I didn’t believe God existed other wise why had he let me go through everything I had been through? I thought he was a joke. I had tried for years to change my husband in many different ways. But the second day I was at the retreat I excepted God as my Savior. That night the group of women I was with started praying with me for my husband. They didn’t have magic words, just praying, talking to God to change my husbands heart. The next day was Sunday and my husband went to church without me. He was saved that day. Praise God!! My husband and I have radically changed our entire Lives. We are no longer of this world, we live in it but we are not of it. We are free and our marriage is one I can brag about. Imagine that.

So know you have met someone who’s life has been drastically changed because of God and faith. I wish you only the best and I will be praying for you and your family. (hope you don’t mind)

Thanks for being a great Teacher Pastor Rob…
God Bless

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“if the 2 of you have ‘debated’ Christians in the past — true, Christ Followers (a term I prefer due to the moronic behavior of a lot of “Christians”) than you must realize that at some point it comes down to faith.

I always find it interesting when someone claims that they are the only true Christians. Do you really think that your personal Christian faith is above all others? How many false prophets have made that claim? Also, If one really had true faith there would be no need for a book, a pastor or a church to prop it up, IMHO.

“-everyone also has a mind. this can be proven as the way you are able to have emotions and your own thoughts. it seperates us from other animals in the way we can make descions based off feelings rather than instict. [feelings are normally based off happiness i have learned]“

Pet a cat… It will purr and stretch out and, generally, be very happy. A level of contentedness that most humans will never truly know or understand. Now kick that same cat. (I know that this may go against your natural instincts!) I bet that it will show a completely different emotion towards you. There is very little, emotionally, that is different between you and that cat. You react emotionally, and learn these reactions much in the same way it does.

And, NO! I don’t really want you to kick a cat…

“Pet a cat… It will purr and stretch out and, generally, be very happy. A level of contentedness that most humans will never truly know or understand. Now kick that same cat. (I know that this may go against your natural instincts!) I bet that it will show a completely different emotion towards you. There is very little, emotionally, that is different between you and that cat. You react emotionally, and learn these reactions much in the same way it does.”

that cat is following its instinct. Becuase you are absolutely right if you pet the cat it will be happy. And if you kick that cat it will be angry. However thats just it. You can tell me the EXACT reaction from the cat. When you kick that cat it is not able to still be kind, it won’t come running back a moment later for you to kick again. next time the cat sees you it will stay clear. Thats what gives humans a mind. They can be deeply wounded by someone and still come back.
Jesus for example was beaten till he was unrecognizable as a man. Yet he still went through with the painful death to take on all the sins of the people beating Him, those who hated Him, and the others that loved Him. Jesus was God, He could have gotten out of any of this at any point. But he didn’t. This makes humans different. Cats have an instinct they we can predict. humans have choices.

“that cat is following its instinct. Becuase you are absolutely right if you pet the cat it will be happy. And if you kick that cat it will be angry. However thats just it. You can tell me the EXACT reaction from the cat.”

Incorrect. It’s instinct is to, generally, be friendly. Then it learns to distrust those who kick it. I can, imho, tell you your likely reactions as well. Based on human instinct.

“Thats what gives humans a mind. They can be deeply wounded by someone and still come back.”

If, Over the years, enough people kicked you, you would learn to hate people. Until someone teaches you otherwise. Or, until you need something from that someone.

“When you kick that cat it is not able to still be kind, it won’t come running back a moment later for you to kick again. next time the cat sees you it will stay clear.”

A deeply wounded cat will still come back if it is hungry and you are its sole source of food. And so would you. That would be your survival instincts. The same survival instincts that the cat has. If someone were to mistreat you in this way you would eventually chose to leave that situation. And the cat would be looking for that open door and never come back, in the exact same way as you.

I know you would like to think you are above all of that. But it is simply not true. Having a slightly larger cranium does not make you all that much different than any other animal on the face of the earth. Some of these animal behaviors may be instinctual from birth and others are learned, but they are behaviors that are shared (for the most part) across the species and, for the most part, very predictable.

There may be some cats that would enjoy being kicked, as perverse as that may seem, but that is just another trait they might share with other humans that have what most would call fetishes.

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[...] A response to a contest hosted by: Rob Singleton [...]

While I waited for my toilet paper to be unloaded in Anniston, Alabama, I wrote my story for your contest.

In Him, Gib

I’ve worked with teens for nearly two decades (http://realteenfaith.com). I receive e-mails almost daily from girls who are cynical about love because they are told that sex is no big deal, and it’s portrayed in 30 minute episodes or three minute lyrics as nothing more than feelings. It’s so much more, and it truly is shaping and affecting this next generation, and the sad fact is that it’s mostly adults who are targeting our teens, and why? For a dollar–lots of them. I believe in this generation (just read the post from the 14 year old and you’ll see why), but I also think that it’s important that we share by example love, lasting, unselfish, unconditional, generous, kindness, as we talk frankly about what sex and love is and what it’s not.

A few comments from the peanut gallery.

I choose who to follow. what to follow, what to believe and what not to believe. I was a former Jew, become atheist, wanderer for 45 years. It was empty. I grew up in the middle of the summer of love in San Francisco. Trust me, every one at the megaphone or microphone was making sense. I fell for their scientific-dope-smokin’-LSD trippin’ , BS excuses for “Do what you want” “It ain’t no bodies business but your own” “If it moves… hump it” spiritual expression “Love-in’s”.

It was the beginning of a massive, world wide “High” speed train wreck. We’re still seeing the aimless bodies wandering, searching for love in all the wrong places.

Here’s what I have come to find out about what makes God, God;

God has certain attributes, certain things that make God, God. A quality or characteristic of His very nature.

One of them is His simplicity. Having or composed of only one thing, element or part. Another word is “Simple”

All of creation has 3 elements;
Time
Space
Matter
Whenever you have space and matter, you have time. (Don’t fall asleep just yet)

The Greek language uses the words “Ex nihilo” or “Out of nothing.”

Ex nihilo or creation, means God created time as well. If God is beyond (before) time, anything that is outside of time is “Simple”. Therefore God is simple.

Space requires time – time requires space – matter requires both. They all require each other. Einstein found that you cannot have matter with out space or time. I wonder who or what gave him the ability to figure that out???)
Therefore, get this… If God is beyond time, then He is beyond space & matter as well.

“Something” or “Someone” is before time, matter or space.

That is what makes God, God.

“I’ve lost all faith in being an Atheist”

Wow…my fingers are sore

“If, Over the years, enough people kicked you, you would learn to hate people. Until someone teaches you otherwise. Or, until you need something from that someone.”

Or, may I suggest, until the love of Christ comes into your life. Which is very much like someone teaching you otherwise, but so much more.
Just wanted to add that option as I have seen the love of Jesus, not normal human instinct, really transform people’s lives.

A few comments from the peanut gallery. (I don’t think the 1st post went thru, if it did…bag it.)

I choose who to follow. what to follow, what to believe and what not to believe. I was a former Jew, become atheist, wanderer for 45 years. It was empty. I grew up in the middle of the summer of love in San Francisco. Trust me, every one at the megaphone or microphone was making sense. I fell for their scientific-dope-smokin’-LSD trippin’ , BS excuses for “Do what you want” “It ain’t no bodies business but your own” “If it moves… hump it” spiritual expression “Love-in’s”.

It was the beginning of a massive, world wide “High” speed train wreck. We’re still seeing the aimless bodies wandering, searching for love in all the wrong places.

Here’s what I have come to find out about what makes God, God;

God has certain attributes, certain things that make God, God. A quality or characteristic of His very nature.

One of them is His simplicity. Having or composed of only one thing, element or part. Another word is “Simple”

All of creation has 3 elements;
Time
Space
Matter
Whenever you have space and matter, you have time. (Don’t fall asleep just yet)

The Greek language uses the words “Ex nihilo” or “Out of nothing.”

Ex nihilo or creation, means God created time as well. If God is beyond (before) time, anything that is outside of time is “Simple”. Therefore God is simple.

Space requires time – time requires space – matter requires both. They all require each other. Einstein found that you cannot have matter with out space or time. I wonder who or what gave him the ability to figure that out???)
Therefore, get this… If God is beyond time, then He is beyond space & matter as well.

“Something” or “Someone” is before time, matter or space.

That is what makes God, God.

“I’ve lost all faith in being an Atheist”

Wow…my fingers are sore

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Hey, I am wondering about the rules for this contest. How do you decide which strory is better than another? For me, this simply reinforces the idea that we have to be good enough, to measure up, to do things the “right” way to be accepted, and to get the prize. How can you single out one person’s story , call them the winner? Is that not stating that they are better than the rest?

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Stephen,

Because it’s my contest

Haha! Rob, now that’s funny.
Thanks for the chuckle.

What Did Your Parents Do Right?

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http://kittyhinkle.blogspot.com/

Sorry for the first post… I totally messed it up. so I had to redo it.
Thanks for your patience.
God Bless
Liz

I am sorry about the double post, but I totally messed up the first one so I had to redu everything.
God Bless
Liz